Underdog Dharma: an interview with the Ven.Ayya Yeshe
- dingirfecho
- 3 days ago
- 32 min read
[Lama Fede]
We should be recording again, but I will say thank you so much for joining me tonight or today (for you!).
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yes.
[Lama Fede]
So, as we discussed before, this is going to be a record interview that we're going to publish. We publish within our SONAM Journal of Tibetan Studies. And as also we discussed, it has to be with the challenges, right?
That Buddhist situation, especially this movement from Tibet and from Himalayan traditions, is facing now that it's moving west. So, the first question I would like to ask you is to tell me a little bit more about yourself, about your origins, how you started in Dharma, because that can perhaps frame a little bit the conversation later.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Okay. So, I think my Buddhist path started when my father died when I was 14, and that really shook my world view and made me think what's the meaning of life, and if I could die at any time, how can I make the best use of my life? So, then I became a hippie and left home at 15 in search of the meaning of life and found the Dharma in Nepal and India at 17.
And I guess I fell in love with the Dharma and wanted to devote my life to it. But I originally met Tibetan Buddhism, and then I came back to Australia after a year of practice in India, got a job to pay the bills, which I didn't particularly find meaningful, but I also volunteered with a call center in a kind of social work center in the middle of the red-light district of Sydney, which I found very meaningful, and I helped a Tibetan Lama run his center in inner Sydney for five years, which was a Sakya lineage, and we were quite close.
And then I ordained at 23, but then I found, though my teacher was a wonderful man, there was no support, there was no financial support, and there was a double standard in the way that Western monastics who were running the Dharma Center, running courses, cleaning, holding space for people, were charged rent, expected to buy their own food, but the Tibetan Lama didn't pay rent, was bought food, was cherished and worshipped, even though we were doing more work. So that was a really difficult awakening, and then I decided to live on faith after a year of working in a lay job and trying to be a nun with neither the freedom of lay life nor the benefits of monastic life.
I met a nun who lived on faith, and she was in the forest tradition, the Thai forest tradition, and everybody was like, you're crazy, no one can live like that anymore. But this nun was traveling around the world doing that, you know. And then I found the Theravadan forest tradition and met my mentor Bhante Sujato, who's like a feminist monk who, along with Arya Tathaloka and many devotees, helped revive the Bhiksuni ordination in the Theravada tradition.
So I used to stay there, but I also used to do engaged Buddhism, teaching meditation in drug and alcohol rehab centers, schools, prisons, and so forth.
[Lama Fede]
That's a very social conscious path, I think. I met another Bhiksuni, Arya Marajina. I did an interview with her a couple of months back.
And in all of this, there is this, I would say, this kind of thread that runs through it, right? That has to do with you trying to live your life as a nun, seeing these challenges that I think happens to everyone who is a Western man, or in my case, from the global South, that deals with Buddhism, right? Whereas there is like the tiers, whereas there's different tiers for Asian, let's call it Asian teachers and Western teachers.
And at the same time, you're also trying to find very clear social work, right? You're trying to get to the bottom of, as you say, working in a red light district, helping people in prisons, helping. And all of this has been, it's a very real experience.
So can I ask, who did your teachers support you in this?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
My Tibetan teachers didn't support me, except by giving me teachings, which is a gift. But, you know, when you have a teacher who is the head of a lineage like Sakya Trizin, or a man like my original teacher who grew up from the age of eight in a monastery, I don't think they really understand the life of Western women, and they don't have the time, certainly if they're the head of a lineage, to mentor. And, I mean, it's not that I looked for social work, but I had been a street kid.
I was sexually exploited as a street kid. So I just understood the life of an underdog. So I wanted to be engaged.
And because the Buddhist community didn't support me, I sought meaning outside the Buddhist community with the dispossessed, because I guess I felt dispossessed. Or, you know, I just understood what it was to not be part of the mainstream. So, sorry, what was the other part of your question?
[Lama Fede]
No, no, this is, I mean, this is one part, right? Like Vimalakirti, working with the merchants and the prostitutes. And the second part was essentially, by the way, how did someone support you?
But I guess the answer is mostly they didn't, right?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
No, they didn't, no. No, there's an 85% disrobing rate amongst Western Tibetan monastics. And they're set up to fail from the very beginning.
And then they're, it's such a bad situation, because they're even blamed, like, oh, you didn't have the karma to be ordained. But it's like kicking someone and then saying, why are you rubbing your foot? You know, like, why?
It's spiritual abuse to ordain someone and then abandon them, which is not the Buddhist tradition at all. There is no lineage in 2,600 years of Buddhism that has charged monks and nuns to stay in a monastery or ordain them and then given them no training, no place to stay, no robes, no shelter. The Buddha said there's five things that monks and nuns need, robes, food, shelter, medicine, sorry, four supports for monastic life.
And of course, you know, spiritual teachings and training. And without those things, monastic life isn't possible. And I really feel very sad that this, so many monastics have ordained with faith and have been abandoned in this way.
[Lama Fede]
And can you tell me a little bit what, because what you're describing is a systematic disparities, right? Between, let's say, I'm guessing that you're talking about Lama Chodak, right, from Sakya?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
No, no. I'm talking about Khenpo Ngawang Dhamcho. And I don't, you know, I have the greatest esteem for him.
This is not a personal issue. This is a systemic issue. So it's not just one Dharma center.
It's every Dharma center. So it's also because the Tibetans are refugees, because they view Westerners as having an infinite source of wealth and therefore why should we share resources with these people who in their eyes are rich? But it's just a gross misunderstanding that we don't have money trees in our backyard and if we don't work, we don't have money.
[Lama Fede]
Right.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
And also it's patriarchal and it's ethnocentric. So it's all of those issues combined. And then, you know, Westerners, like Lamas will always say, well, it's not in Western culture to support monks and nuns.
That's nonsense. Europe is full of monasteries. The Catholic Church's greatest Western monk, well, he was a friar.
St. Francis used to go on arms around all the time, you know, and we've had anchorites since medieval times. And you can see in the many Theravadan centers and monasteries flourishing in America and Canada and Europe that people, if they do understand the value and if they understand what is taking place and what the Buddhist tradition of supporting monastics is and why we do it, that it's meritorious and that it helps us gain realized teachers. It's an investment in the legacy of the Dharma.
People will support them, but it's just about teaching them and showing them the value of that, you know.
[Lama Fede]
And this is something that always has kind of struck me as strange, right? But of course, until I started to think about it in terms of means of producing, let's say the means of production of spiritualism, I see, in which for a long time when I was doing research for a lot of groups, very few groups have a clear path of how to produce more lamas or more monks or more teachers, depending on whatever way you want to call them. And especially groups that tend to be like Tibetan or Vietnamese or Chinese here in Argentina, right?
There is a lot of Chinese groups. There is no clear map if you are an Argentinian woman, for example, for you to go there and learn. And to the point, I think it's highly discouraged because my understanding from what I have interviewed teachers there is that because they feel that there is a limited amount of support, they want to make sure that a particular group of people have the support and basically they think that they're diluting the support.
Instead of thinking like, okay, we'll grow, right? We'll have a growth strategy in very capitalistic terms. I'm going to have more associates and they're going to grow.
They're thinking kind of the opposite. This is going to kind of be diluted and we're not going to have enough to live. So do you think that this kind of market economy is part of the reasons why they are not trying to grow their support to Western nuns especially?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
It's a difficult question you're asking. To be honest, I don't think they think Westerners are serious practitioners. I think they are and they want obedient.
It comes from a feudalistic mindset. They want obedient people that they can train from a young age. They don't want fully grown women with their own opinions, with a PhD who will ask them questions.
I guess from their point of view, they view Westerners as like, well, they come for a while and then they go. They're not stable. It's like a cross-cultural misunderstanding.
Tibetans want to preserve their lineage. They don't want anything to change. So they're not prepared to accommodate the totally different outlook of Westerners.
There's a mismatch in needs. And yes, I guess they don't want anyone coming in and taking resources that would be sent to India where they view the real practitioners. I'll give you an example of this mindset.
I went to Kopan Monastery, which does great work. And this was a center bought and paid for and bankrolled by Western nuns, right? And I said to the office administrator, the monk, this place was paid for by Western nuns.
It was bought and provided by Western nuns for you, Himalayan monks. Why do you charge us to study and to do retreat? Like I did a retreat in Kopan and I had to pay for a room.
And he said, why should we support you? You're just a tourist. So that's the mindset.
[Lama Fede]
Just a tourist.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yes, just a tourist. So yeah, I'm afraid this is how it is. There are centers.
There are a few centers that don't charge monastics like Shravasti Abbey, which is a really positive movement. And I believe there is a center in Woodstock, a Kagyu center. And I've heard that there's also a center somewhere in California.
But a few of these centers have lamas accused of rape. So there's lots of problems that they're facing, but they just don't want to change. They don't want to change.
And I don't know. I think for a lama, having monks, it's like equivalent to power. Like look at all my disciples.
We have a big monastery. So rather than having a few good students, which is what you would have in the West, if you were serious about transmitting the Dharma to the West, in Asia, you can get more bang for your buck, so to speak. For the same amount of money, you could have ten.
For one Western disciple or monk, you could have ten or twenty in India. So I think they're playing a numbers game. And it's also like how they look.
And it looks like the monastery is flourishing. They'll get more support from Asian donors. I don't know.
I think that's the mindset.
[Lama Fede]
It's a market economy in a way, being this that is symbolic capital or actual capital, right?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
But it's not just a capital. It's a feudal mindset. Like “look at my army”.
But it's not just malicious or greedy. I do think it's also, in their mind, the Dharma is a good thing. And having more people studying the Dharma is a good thing.
So we want to preserve our lineage. So I think that's their mindset.
[Lama Fede]
I just returned from Bodh Gaya last week. And this brings me a little bit. You were talking about the big temples there.
And as you very well know, there is this big difference. You can go to the big temples where you have certain air-conditioned places, right? But Bodh Gaya itself, it's a very poor place.
It's a very rural place in the middle of India. And everyone I want, I speak a little bit of Hindi. So I was talking to the locals there.
And we got even accepted in the Vishnupath Temple, right? This temple of Vishnu, which is kind of closed off. And everyone's telling me that for them, Buddhism itself, it's kind of a tourist attraction, so to speak, right?
So who do you think that this kind of difference is?
Yes, and they were saying that they're not Buddhists. They're all Hindu. And for them, Buddhism itself, it's commodified, right?
It's become a tourist attraction. You land up in the airport, and there's all Buddhist statues. But everyone there is Hindu, right?
So this is something that I think I have seen in your writing, this idea that sometimes this commodification detaches Dharma from the local struggles. And it's a little bit what you were telling before, right? Like the Tibetan teachers, their way of helping is through teachings.
But there is, I felt, very few real activism, right? Like you were saying, going to the prisons and going to the red zones. Why do you think this commodification happens?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I think everything, everything that happens in the West with Tibetans, you have to look through the lens of a traumatized refugee community trying to preserve their culture. And I think from their point of view, it's like, well, if we teach people to fish, we shouldn't have to give up fish. You know what I mean?
Their thing is if you teach people Dharma, you'll liberate them from samsara. So why be concerned with trying to fix samsara? Samsara is screwed from the beginning, so it's better to try and help people get enlightened.
And just going back to one of the other things you said, of these Dharma centers in the West, I think another problem that we have in supporting Western monastics is that Western Buddhists view Buddhism as a fee-for-pay service. So they don't view it as a living community that requires ongoing sustenance to preserve the Dharma, to create community, to turn up for them. They view it as, you know, it's a business, and when I want it, I'll go to it and pay for it or attend it.
But I don't care what happens to them when I'm not there. They don't think about it, you know. They just think, okay, right now I'm feeling a bit of suffering, so I'll go to the Dharma center and I'll tell my problems to the monk or a nun, and I'll take a bit of their time and I'll do some retreat.
But when I feel good, I won't go back to the temple and, you know, it's not my problem. So that's a problem. And that's an issue with maintaining community.
And maybe the Tibetan lamas look at that Western mindset of like, well, you just come when you're upset and you're not so stable in your practice, so I'd rather have monks that will just do what I say, because they've given their life to the Dharma. They're serious about the Dharma, whereas Westerners are a little bit unstable and up and down depending on how their marriage is and how their job is, and you know what I mean? So they're just looking at these young children they ordain, they're compliant and they'll learn all the texts and they'll study the Dharma deeply.
So from their point of view, a Tibetan or Himalayan young person is a better investment than these Westerners who are so up and down in their Dharma practice.
[Lama Fede]
It is a very interesting point. Yes, it may be like this, but let me ask you something. And I have had this kind of experience from Western people.
The other day I had someone say, like, can you give me the dulter? And I'm like, the dulter is like 18 volumes. What do you want?
And they're like, I don't know, but I heard it was good, so how much for it? It's like buying Pokemons out of somewhere. But what is your take on this?
What is your feeling of what the Dharma is? We have talked a little bit about what the Tibetan view is, but what is your, if you had to tell me, what is this living Dharma that you are building? What would be your definition in that sense?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
That's a deep question. You mean at my Dharma center or in my social work?
[Lama Fede]
I mean in your conception of Dharma, what Dharma should be. We all have this idea of what Dharma should be or what would be a Pure Land. And of course there are as many as there are Buddhas, right?
So it changes all the time. What would be yours?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I mean I think the Dharma is for me probably, it's the state of awakening of luminous mind and helping beings to realize that and act from that place of grace and wisdom.
[Lama Fede]
And how would a society of such beings look like?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I have to say my point of view as everything has changed over time because I've been a nun 25 years. And I think in the beginning I was a little bit dualistic and I also came from a Catholic background, you know, so I had this idea of morality and doing good. And I don't think that's wrong, but it's a bit tiring.
Like ultimately you're going to burn out with the do-gooder mentality because you'll try to rehabilitate the alcoholic, but the next day he's in the park drinking again. And I've seen, you know, I lived in an Indian slum 13 years. I've got a girl's home.
I've got a women's job training center in Nagpur and it's been running 18 years. We have 22 employees. And I've seen, like, I thought maybe if we could give them good jobs, educate their kids, maybe we could uplift the community and they would get more serious about the Dhamma.
But unfortunately, mostly they're just like, oh, we've got a good education now. We want more. We want a bigger house.
We want a better job. And I'm like, oh, this isn't what I intended. My intention wasn't to make you more samsaric.
But it's true that it's hard for people to think about liberation when their stomach is empty. But how would the Dhamma look? I mean, at the very least, I think it's hard because people aren't enlightened, you know, and most of them aren't even interested in waking up.
So I think probably from that point of view, you do need a society with rules. Yes. And, you know, ideally, like society from my point of view, the thing is it's difficult because there's free will, right?
And a lot of people don't want what I want. So it's hard to fix samsara. But good living situations that I've seen are like eco-villages, you know, where people grow their own food and people inhabit small sustainable houses like cob or mud brick that don't need, you know, they're carbon neutral because they don't need to be heated.
And they're beautiful and they're handmade. And people help each other. And people maybe only work five hours a day in a really laid back, enjoyable way in their garden or, you know, maybe they're a blacksmith.
Like for me, that's my maybe that's my hippie thing of a more simple, a simpler and more sane life with less with more horizontal social organisation rather than top to bottom hierarchy. That is, you know, a bit more matriarchal, not in the sense that men are oppressed, but in the sense that women and children are the centre of the community, not a culture of nurturance instead of a culture of dominance. And I've seen, I have to say, like when I look at someone like Namkhai Norbu, I'm not so sure about his students, but I just think he was very progressive.
He was not interested in maintaining Tibetan hierarchies. He was, he completely embraced the present, which was Tibet is gone. And we need to deal with reality as it is now.
I don't know how sustainable a kind of lay-based Buddhism with no monastics is. Maybe that's not exactly my vision. But I think he, when I see teachers like James Lowe and Namkhai Norbu and Lama Eric in, I think he's in Denmark.
He's a Nyingma Kagyu master. Yeah, they just seem very, they seem appealing to me, the way they teach. I don't know exactly, but they don't have any monastics.
You know, one person I really respect also is Thich Nhat Hanh. He's one of my teachers. And he, I could have stayed at Plum Village and they've always been very encouraging to me, even though I'm maybe a little bit outspoken and radical for them.
I feel like the way they live is very wholesome and sustainable with the Fourfold Sangha. And I see a lot of the young people coming to them are very idealistic and the people in the lay order of interbeing that they have are very ethical. So I think the way they're living, you know, they're starting to have gardens.
They're starting some lay eco-villages. They seem to have a good vision for life. Yeah.
[Lama Fede]
And this is interesting because essentially, you know, we discussed this before, I'm a Marxist, right, because I've been a Buddhist. And so for us, past and gender, these are social constructs that have to do with an infrastructure itself. So in order to reach, what I'm hearing is like, let's call it like Nirvana or the Buddha lands as a kind of global village, right?
A place where ecology and where environment and where a different way, non-patriarchal way of organizing society would exist. But in your own work, dealing with all these systemic inequalities that are today hemming Buddhism, do you think that this is something that is achievable in the sense of building it and having a different model? Or does it necessarily require some kind of competition or conflict with this more patriarchal, hierarchical, vertical model that exists?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I'm just one nun. That's a very big, it's very hard to change it. I've been trying for a long time.
And I feel like the people to change it are men, the people in power. I feel like nuns have very little power. I'm just an aunt.
What I can achieve is quite small, unfortunately. And even Western nuns themselves, some of them, like we have this online Western nuns chat group for different events like Vinaya training and support. And even within that group, me being honest, just saying there's an 85% disrobing rate and some lamas are molesting students and so forth.
Of course, there are many good lamas. And I'm not saying all lamas are bad. But just that was considered outrageous and caused a big split in that chat group because just saying we have this problem, we have a homelessness issue, we are not being treated well by Western dharma centres and we're being ignored by lamas, just saying that was considered outrageous and led to a lot of controversy and debate and pain, I guess.
Because I think maybe to stay ordained and maintain faith in your lama, you probably have to bypass that because to realise you're part of a system that doesn't care about you is pretty heartbreaking, which is one of the reasons why I started the Mahayana forest tradition and why I live outside that system, because you're just regarded as a servant. Even the term anila is so descriptive of what Western nuns are, how they're regarded as aunties. Like in the Handmaid's Tale, there's the Jezebel, there's the Martha, there's the handmaid.
So we're Martha's. We're the always helpful, smiling, I-baked-a-cake-for-you-auntie, I-cleaned-the-dharma-temple-now, please, now, Guruji, please sit on the throne.
[Lama Fede]
And digest, yes.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yeah, so, sorry, I think I've gone off on the track again. What were we talking about?
[Lama Fede]
No, no, no, but it's still the track. I think that that's kind of the challenge. Like, for example, you, and I saw these controversies online, this is why we started talking.
It is terrible. We have also had a lot of people trying to build, like, casting courses as adults, because we said, for example, which is true, there is a systemic abuse of people within certain institutions, and it goes against the Buddhist teachings, right?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Of women, let's be honest. It's mostly women being abused.
[Lama Fede]
Mostly women.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yes, but some men too, some young boys as well.
[Lama Fede]
Yes, but the systemic, as in everything, it's not equal. Because at least in that sense, it would be something equal, but it is not. Like, you have noted that most of the work in the world is done by women, and yet a very small percentage of them actually own land or own the means of production, most.
10%. 10%, right. And if you look at, like, any Fortune 500 directory, it's mostly men, mostly white older men, right?
So I think that there is value in doing things, as you say, as in Mahayana forest tradition, as having hops of a different kind of approach, right? Because one of the major issues that we have found is that there is not an alternative. As you said, you're someone who takes refuge in a Lama and who depends on that Lama for donation.
If there is not an alternative, there's a lot of people who are going to accept this as a prize. It's a horrible thing to say, but as a prize to remain there. Therefore, isn't there value in construing?
You're saying that you're just one man, but there is a lot of value in construing different alternatives, right? Different modes of being Buddhist that do not require these kind of sacrifices.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yeah, I mean, it would be good if you didn't have to be, like, to accept having to be dehumanized on a regular basis in order to receive teachings and ordination. Yes, it would be very good. And I have to say, I actually have a Lama in the last few years.
He's a hermit and he doesn't want a public profile. But he's a Western Lama who is very lovely and has been very supportive of me. So I feel like I've been incredibly lucky to find him and study some authentic texts with him.
This is wonderful.
[Lama Fede]
We're rejoicing for this. And tell me something. You're also a big proponent of education.
I have seen posts of you talking about education and how it sometimes helps women to kind of have a different view, especially in domestic abuse, right? Yeah. So what do you think the role of education should be within a Buddhist context?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I mean, I think there's a lot of nuns who really want education. And I think it's great that there is now Geshe-Ma training. But I feel like if we're going to teach Buddhism in the West, it has to be in a slightly different...
I don't feel like Westerners find the whole debate and memorizing things super... And, you know, is the color white a color? And I feel like the way we study Dhamma in the West maybe should be a little bit more like a university-type course.
But, yeah, it's really important. And many Buddhist women in developing countries do not have good education. And education is like every year a girl spends in high school will potentially increase her wage by 20%.
But, you know, I mean, look at Thailand. Poor boys go to the monastery. Poor girls become sex workers.
So it says a lot about how gender affects a poor child's future. Whereas if in those countries nuns had dignity, nunneries could be a good refuge for poor girls seeking education or women that didn't want to get married, you know? Education is very important.
[Lama Fede]
And also it's terrible that in Thailand wealth is very distributed very unequally and there is almost no social mobility. When I was there last time, they were telling me, like, the only way you have to basically move in the world if you're a woman is either you marry up in a clear social class or through sex work, right? And to have those be the alternatives is heartbreaking.
Even though their education system is not necessarily that bad, but certainly the opportunities for women to do something with it is terrible enough.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
It's much worse in Bodh Gaya. Oh, yes. I mean, it's shocking in Bodh Gaya.
It's shocking that... And there's a lot of fake charities in Bodh Gaya too, which is really sad. There's some genuine ones, like that Ginu Nami Thapa school is quite good.
And I believe the FPMT school had a school for a while or a school affiliated with them. There's some good charities there too, but the poverty is really devastating in Bihar. But unfortunately, it's also a mindset, you know, because children will take admission into a school just to get a uniform and then be back out on the street begging the next day and not want to go to school because their parents are only having a short-term mindset of, like, I want, you know, like almost an entrepreneurial mindset of, like, what am I going to get by engaging in education?
And unfortunately, there's no... It's systemic as well. There's no factories like there is in Maharashtra.
Maharashtra has a better infrastructure. So, like, they literally, in the tourist season, they make more money begging than they do working in a brick factory. And girls are married, you know, sometimes.
And I've even heard of, like, Tibetans or other people buy... I'm not saying all Tibetans do this, but now and then a business will buy a girl for 100,000 rupees or a girl will be bought for a more nefarious purpose, not by a Tibetan necessarily. But...
So, there's just so many dark things going on under the surface in Bodh Gaya that it's not just Buddhism. It's Brahmanism. It's the mindset of, like, telling someone for 5,000 years, you are nothing.
You come out of the feet of God. So, just accept your fate as a slave and shut up. So, if you've been told you're worth nothing, you're just going to...
You're not going to feel inspired to reach for something high, are you? When everything is against you, you're just going to develop a mindset of quite a depressed mindset of, like, what can I get today and who can I exploit, you know?
[Lama Fede]
And the best thing to do is basically just die to see if you can please go to another incarnation, right? It's horrible.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yeah, it's very sad.
[Lama Fede]
And this is something I wanted to ask you because, for example, when I was in Bodh Gaya, one of the funniest things is that the market is called the Ambedkar market, right? And now Ambedkar is someone who is, of course, not well regarded in India, even though he created the Indian constitution. And this a lot has to do with his Navayana project and a lot has to do with his conversion to Buddhism and his rejection of Brahmanism, right?
Do you have any kind of... I haven't been able to find, but I think that, in a way, it's kind of a good fit, right? With Dr. Ambedkar's approach to a more, let's call it, social way of seeing Dharma, understanding the material conditions for Dharma to exist. Have you had any approaches to the Navayana movement or do you play any of these kind of vows to your own Nabi?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Any vows?
[Lama Fede]
He has 22 vows in which he basically...
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yes, yes, yes, to renounce Hinduism. I mean, Nagpur, where we have our charity, is like the Dalit heartland. It's where Dr. Ambedkar...
Dr. Ambedkar, just for social context for those who don't know, is like the Martin Luther King Jr. of the Indian continent. He's well regarded by Ambedkarites and by many scheduled caste and tribal people. Who he is not well regarded by is upper caste people with privilege because he directly threatened to destabilize their hegemony, their birth privilege and their cherished religious beliefs that have disenfranchised Dalits for thousands of years.
So in Nagpur, what we really have is a different kind of Buddhism, a Buddhism that is Navayana, New Yana, and it's based on more humanitarian social justice principles than traditional Buddhist values. I mean, it's got traditional Buddhist values, but the main emphasis is emerging from casteism and social oppression with Dharma as a secondary thing. And many Ambedkarites don't know what Buddhism is.
They know that Dr. Ambedkar said Brahmanism is bad. So it's an interesting phenomena there. But I feel that that Buddhism is very specifically relevant to communities that are struggling under social oppression.
So it might be Ambedkarite Buddhism, like for example, his book, The Buddha and His Dharma, or I think one book was The Eradication of Caste, The Annihilation of Caste. So I feel like this kind of book would be really relevant to oppressed communities like Indigenous communities, maybe African-Americans. It may not be so relevant to a privileged white person on the Upper East Side.
But, yeah, I mean, the beautiful thing about Dr. Ambedkar is that the Ambedkarite community believes in educating girls. Yes, very much. Although, you know, women are still not that well-treated necessarily.
It's interesting to see these men who believe that they deserve equality and they want to overcome their social oppression, but they don't necessarily want to give that to their wives. Like I spoke to a guy once and he was like, yes, yes, you know, we fully support education for women and, you know, we want equality for all human beings. And I said, so you would send, if your wife decided she wanted to do a PhD in another city, you would fully support her because she's an equal human being.
And he was like, but who would make dinner?
[Lama Fede]
Yes, it’s slave lives, it's very difficult. It's something of a phenomenon here, where there was the "allied". Some people, especially some men, were extremely supportive.
They would say, like, I'm a feminist. Like our former president. He would say: I'm the first feminist. And then he would hit his wife.
He would have affairs. He was like the worst person ever. But there is always this kind of support, of this kind of things, right?
Which is interesting because, in a way, Dr. Ambedkar, when he did it, when he talked about this urbanic society, right? He wrote a lot about what it would look like. And he did something that is very interesting.
He said that it was basically kind of emulating the French Revolution based on liberty, on equality, and especially fraternity, right? Over the pursuit of gain or capital gain. But this is almost the opposite of what you have called, I think, Maraism, right?
That essentially generates this kind of selfishness, this turn towards the individual and to social hierarchies. And I need to get mine, so to speak, as our American friends would put it. So what do you think that are good practices to kind of overcome this?
Because it's also mindset, right? This kind of selfish mindset. As you said, for example, in the case of the people in India, they were very entrepreneurial.
What do you think are good practices to kind of counteract this poison?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I mean, I think it really is location-centric, you know, because what I see in the West is I see people are exhausted and overwhelmed by late-stage capitalism. And they're also really lonely and disconnected from community. And there's this overemphasis on the individual.
And Buddhism, as I said, is treated as a pay-for-use product. So the antidote to that is investing in community, investing in the Dharma as a living tradition and not just a business model, and thinking about the long-term legacy, you know, of the younger, how we're going to pass it on to the younger generation and meeting their needs. You know, you can't come to a Dharma centre if you can't find a rental.
[Lama Fede]
Right.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
You know, or if you're living in your car or you can't afford the fee. And if you're in a state of flight or fight, you know. But I actually think it's by design.
It's by design that people are being cannibalised at the bottom because a fearful population is a compliant population. Whereas I think the issue in India is kind of the superstition of, I don't know, entrenched. Because what you've got in India is religiously sanctified discrimination, basically.
It's not just class discrimination. It is people literally are told that in the eyes of God they're unworthy. So they've, you know, yeah, that's pretty pernicious.
So that's why I think Dr Ambedkar was so anti-Hinduism, you know, break away from blind faith. And I think that's been a very good move for the Ambedkarites, you know. As compared to Dalits who are still Hindu, the Ambedkarites are very upwardly mobile, motivated to fight for their rights.
They're a force to be reckoned with. Whereas if you have someone who believes they deserve their oppression.
[Lama Fede]
It's going to be internalised. It's going to be terrible, yes.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yeah, yeah. So any movement that I think in the West moves towards community, moves towards solidarity, moves towards an understanding that happiness, we're all interconnected. And therefore happiness isn't just a personal matter, it's a communal matter.
Whereas in India, and once again, I guess in a way, that solidarity is also just realising, you know, those people that we've outcast are human beings and that we all feel, we all suffer. So I guess in a way that basic recovery of the human dignity and the human spirit is relevant to all people on the Buddhist path, to realise that, yeah, we need basic justice, basic compassion to thrive and pursue the spiritual path. And even the Buddha said, you know, like you can't have without, the Buddha gave a lot of advice to rulers and like what a good husband is, what a good ruler is, what a good civil society is in the Sigalavada Sutta and a letter to a king.
He gave a lot of teachings about ethics and basic morality and responsible human relationships. So I think without a decent economy and a sustainable economy and housing and infrastructure and good leaders, it's very hard for people to pursue the Dharma. I mean, would it be easy in a war zone or bombs are dropping on you or while your children are dying to pursue the Dharma?
I don't think so.
[Lama Fede]
It's very difficult. Yes. Yes.
And this is why keeping the peace should be one of the things. And also, as you mentioned before, having more women lead the Dharma, because in a way, a lot of what happens is a lot of, I think most lineages are led by men.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yeah. So maybe questioning people's power as well, like people don't have power unless we give them power. So actually questioning, are you a benevolent leader if you're excluding half the population?
Do you deserve our allegiance and our donations? And maybe only supporting Dharma centers that have an equal amount of female leadership and cultivating and investing in female teachers and support the fourfold monks, nuns, laywomen, laymen or non-binary people. If they're investing in women as well as men as practitioners, then they're worth your support and otherwise maybe find somewhere else.
Because those people sitting on thrones are there because we put them there. And that's something we need to remember. What am I condoning?
What am I supporting? It's just really hard though in Tibetan Buddhism because there's so much emphasis on lineage. And if you walk away, you're pretty much left with nothing, which is why so many people that I've seen disrobe, if they actually get to a point where their eyes are wide open, they give up their faith altogether because they can't see how they could remain in the lineage with this rampant patriarchy and abuse.
You're either in it or you lose everything. And that's why people stay in cults as well, because their family, their belief system, it's really hard to reform the tradition. And that's why they kind of lose faith.
It's very hard to change those things and the loss is huge.
[Lama Fede]
There is a way out. There is a way out. And there is a way out being a Buddhist, which I think that this is why it's important that stories like you can be heard, right?
Because part of people knowing, even though it's going to be hard, I mean, I went through something like that myself, right? It is hard because you kind of think everything is going to be meaningless. No, but it's not.
I would say that it's a better way to kind of look at this. For example, remember Dalai Lama's famous dictum that he's half Buddhist, right? Half Marxist, which is a very nice quote.
It's a very nice quote in itself, but it is very difficult sometimes to see the Marxist half of the Dalai Lama in the way that the Gelug itself is structured, right? Or other schools are structured because clearly there is not redistribution of the means of production, so to speak. It's very much kept into a very small part.
So if you had to tell someone, right, if you had to tell someone that is in that situation, that, as you say, someone that is thinking to this role because they see all of this inequality, thinking of not supporting it, and you could tell them that there is another chance, there is another way of doing this. What would you tell them?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Well, I did start a monastery for people like this. So Bodhichitta Dakini Buddhist Monastery, I guess. I would say, I mean, I've met a few people who are ordaining in the Theravada tradition, who really want to practice Tibetan Buddhism, but are ordaining in the Theravada tradition just because they have more dignity as monastics.
The thing about Tibetan Buddhism, though, Vajrayana, is there is a need for, if that's what you're into, there is a need for an authentic lineage. And to be honest, the only way I can see to embrace those lineages, I mean, I guess there is Tara Mandala, although some abuse allegations have emerged there too, but not as terrible as some of the abuse I've seen, like sexual abuse from male lamas. Western lamas seem to have less baggage, like people who, you know, they speak Tibetan, but they've studied all the texts and their senior lineage holders, like Alan Wallace and James Lowe and Eric Jensen, yeah, Lama Eric Jensen, is it that?
Yeah. So they just seem to have a bit less baggage, but they don't have monastic sanghas. So if you want to join a monastic sangha, there's somewhere like Shravasti Abbey, there is my place in Tasmania.
Or, you know, another option is join a Theravadan monastery and just try and study with your teacher when you can online or, you know, or start from the ground up like I did. But you lose a lot by being as outspoken as I am, you know. I'm only outspoken because I have nothing to lose, really.
I've already, I never had support from the beginning, so what have I got to lose, you know? I was outcast from the beginning.
[Lama Fede]
But it's a little bit of your medicine, right, that don't curse the dark and slay the candle, so you build this structure and now, for example, in your monastery, they can order if they want to order and they can also try to practice some either Vajrayana or Thai tradition or whatever practice. So there is a possibility, right?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Yeah, yeah. And there's also a bit more freedom. Like, say, in a Tibetan monastery, you have to follow the routine that they set, you know, whereas in a Western monastery, I just feel like there has to be a bit more individual freedom because that's our culture.
That's what we're used to. I can't tell a 50-year-old, I can't treat a 15-year-old woman like she's a naughty girl in a Catholic school girl boarding school, you know? Right.
Like, she's got her own mind. She's got her own life experiences. So maybe she's interested in social work, so maybe she's geared towards engaged Buddhism or maybe someone else is a scholar, so maybe they are more geared towards academia, you know?
It's not a one-size-fits-all.
[Lama Fede]
So to kind of wrap up this, that is your vision to, let's call it, a non-Himalayan or non-Asian monasticism, right? Somewhere where essentially everyone can be met at their needs and can be supported rather than in a set lineage but according to their vows and aspirations.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I mean, there is still some expectation of them contributing to the community and us practising as a group. So, you know, people being open to... Sorry, my dog keeps trying to climb on my lap.
[Lama Fede]
No, that's wonderful.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
There is some expectation that, you know, we do certain practices together and there's going to be a bit of Theravada and there's going to be a bit of Tibetan Buddhism. I guess the idea of beloved community is a nice framework of people who are working together for awakening but also to benefit others. Yeah.
Excellent.
[Lama Fede]
Well, Venerable, I basically ask the main questions that I want to ask but I'm always asking, what is that I haven't asked that you think I should have asked? Is there something that I'm missing? What would be your main thing that you want to say?
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
I mean, who do you think your audience is?
[Lama Fede]
Mostly, my audience is going to be people who are interested in this intersection between the social and the Buddhist world. It's going to be probably people who are going to be, I would say, at least a degree of higher education. Our group is basically a Vajrayana group that deals very clearly in this interaction.
And my experience is that most of my students at least have an undergraduate degree, right? And most of them have postgraduate degrees. So that probably is going to be the standard of the audience.
Then after that, this is published. So this is published. I don't know exactly where it goes, but I would say that the people I'm sure that are going to read this tend to be this kind of profile.
[Ven.Ayya Yeshe]
Right, right. I would say, I mean, to the people interested in studying nuns or, you know, marginalised folks, please understand we're human beings. We don't just exist to be exotic for your PhD.
We're human beings who are marginalised within a beautiful system that we uphold and would like to be more part of, because women are the biggest supporters of spirituality and religion around the world. And it's a shame to be part of something so beautiful that you're upholding that you can't be an equal participant in. And we have to question, like, if these beautiful teachings aren't accessible, how does that look to the world?
So there is one nunnery to every 10 monasteries in India amongst the Himalayan diaspora. There is, like, only four or five monasteries for Western monastics, and two of them are headed by lamas accused of abuse, sexual abuse. So could we work together to uplift each other and acknowledge that when people are not empowered, especially women, it's a blight on the beauty of the Dharma.
These are not just people to study. These are people who are suffering, real human beings, who have every wish in their heart to gain enlightenment and for various reasons, you know, who ordain with so much faith and potential and end up being, you know, overworked, burnt out, and then told it's their own karma, their own fault. So the way it is, is not the way it should be, and we can do better.
That's what I would say. So please help us in this by insisting that Dharma centres empower and teach women, hold spaces for women, don't charge Western monastics, offer scholarships to women practising, support monasteries, support women's voices, and empower the poorest among us.
[Lama Fede]
Thank you. I enjoyed your expression wholeheartedly, and really, I think your work is wonderful. We need more of you.
We need more of you. Thank you so much. Take care.
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